NAIA BB Changes

If you want to talk about Monmouth University Football, Quincy University Basketball, Notre Dame Men's Soccer, or whatever, this is the place.
wiu712
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Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:23 am

The NAIA Championship Football game has been on ESPNU since 2014. The CBS Sports Network serves as the national media outlet for the NAIA.

In 1937, Dr. James Naismith and local leaders staged the first National College Basketball Tournament at Municipal Auditorium in Kansas City—one year before the first NIT and two years before the first NCAA Tournament.
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RedNeck
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Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:44 am

ST_Lawson wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:15 pm
RedNeck wrote:Thank you for your transparency Lawson.

Obviously that is why NAIA is struggling. I was curious about the why. I would say T.V. deals but it already started eroding in the 60s-70s. Why?
I don't really know, but I wonder if it has something to do with the NCAA splitting into three divisions in 1973? Maybe it kinda pushed the NAIA down in terms of visibility.

For those that don't know (and no, I'm not trying to make anyone feel old...just putting this out there as a point of reference as it relates to how I'd viewed the NAIA), I was born in '78 and even though I grew up essentially in the shadow of Thompson & Higgins halls, my parents weren't really interested in WIU athletics at that point, so I didn't really pay any attention to it until I started as a freshman at WIU in '96. Well past any of our successes in NAIA.

I think once the divisions split in the NCAA and the TV contracts for the "big boys" started coming in, the lower/other division teams pretty much got lost in the shuffle.

Something else I noticed was that the predecessor to the NAIA was a basketball tournament where "The goal of the tournament was to establish a forum for small colleges and universities to determine a national basketball champion." So it looks like it was always intended to be for small institutions and would allow them to compete against schools that were closer to their enrollment levels/support capabilities. So you didn't have schools like Western State Teacher's College or Central Missouri State having to compete with Illinois, Iowa, or Indiana in the NCAA. When the NCAA split out divisions to DI, DII, and DIII, there was a place for smaller schools to compete against each other within the NCAA and they didn't have to stay with NAIA. Since the NCAA was already dominant nationally because they had the "big boys", it was more advantageous for schools to join a lower division of NCAA than to stay NAIA, because of name recognition.

Idk if that's really the case, but that's my guess, based on the timing of things.
I really like this post. Yes, that makes sense, when NCAA went to three divisions, that might have hurt NAIA. I mean a Millikin or a Monmouth can be NCAA too, well not obviously with the big dogs, but heck, they get their membership card punched and be a part of the club sometimes it's about perception.

One sidebar. Wisconsin is and oddity you have the likes of UW Parkside that is a D-III that has FCS football facilities and the talent to probably be upper level in OVC and at least respectable in MVFC. Weird.

I guess perception is that NAIA is closer to NCAA D-II than III. However its not even across the board. I was at that Abomination of a game a Decade ago where Western hosted D-II Cheyney University. Cheyney with out question was the worst football squad I have ever seen take the field at the collegiate level. Western could have racked up 130 on them but had the decency to stop scoring before we hit triple digits. Well also our old confused scoreboard only had capacity to display double digits. Remind me again was that old scoreboard a discarded used board from University of Iowa? Something about it being too small.

Meh, the ramblings of and old fart.
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sealhall74
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Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:24 am

RedNeck wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:44 am
ST_Lawson wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:15 pm
RedNeck wrote:Thank you for your transparency Lawson.

Obviously that is why NAIA is struggling. I was curious about the why. I would say T.V. deals but it already started eroding in the 60s-70s. Why?
I don't really know, but I wonder if it has something to do with the NCAA splitting into three divisions in 1973? Maybe it kinda pushed the NAIA down in terms of visibility.

For those that don't know (and no, I'm not trying to make anyone feel old...just putting this out there as a point of reference as it relates to how I'd viewed the NAIA), I was born in '78 and even though I grew up essentially in the shadow of Thompson & Higgins halls, my parents weren't really interested in WIU athletics at that point, so I didn't really pay any attention to it until I started as a freshman at WIU in '96. Well past any of our successes in NAIA.

I think once the divisions split in the NCAA and the TV contracts for the "big boys" started coming in, the lower/other division teams pretty much got lost in the shuffle.

Something else I noticed was that the predecessor to the NAIA was a basketball tournament where "The goal of the tournament was to establish a forum for small colleges and universities to determine a national basketball champion." So it looks like it was always intended to be for small institutions and would allow them to compete against schools that were closer to their enrollment levels/support capabilities. So you didn't have schools like Western State Teacher's College or Central Missouri State having to compete with Illinois, Iowa, or Indiana in the NCAA. When the NCAA split out divisions to DI, DII, and DIII, there was a place for smaller schools to compete against each other within the NCAA and they didn't have to stay with NAIA. Since the NCAA was already dominant nationally because they had the "big boys", it was more advantageous for schools to join a lower division of NCAA than to stay NAIA, because of name recognition.

Idk if that's really the case, but that's my guess, based on the timing of things.
I really like this post. Yes, that makes sense, when NCAA went to three divisions, that might have hurt NAIA. I mean a Millikin or a Monmouth can be NCAA too, well not obviously with the big dogs, but heck, they get their membership card punched and be a part of the club sometimes it's about perception.

One sidebar. Wisconsin is and oddity you have the likes of UW Parkside that is a D-III that has FCS football facilities and the talent to probably be upper level in OVC and at least respectable in MVFC. Weird.

I guess perception is that NAIA is closer to NCAA D-II than III. However its not even across the board. I was at that Abomination of a game a Decade ago where Western hosted D-II Cheyney University. Cheyney with out question was the worst football squad I have ever seen take the field at the collegiate level. Western could have racked up 130 on them but had the decency to stop scoring before we hit triple digits. Well also our old confused scoreboard only had capacity to display double digits. Remind me again was that old scoreboard a discarded used board from University of Iowa? Something about it being too small.

Meh, the ramblings of and old fart.
Cheyney is no longer the worst college football program in the country. They decided to hang up the pads and helmets after last year.
BTW, when a college drops an athletic program from their web site, it is like it never really existed. :lol:
If Jimmy V was a programmer like me, he would have said it like this: while (!(succeed = try()));
wiu712
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Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:53 am

UW-Parkside is NCAA Division 2. They just left the Great Lakes Valley Conference this summer. They are now in the Great Lakes Intercollegiate Athletic Conference.

They do not play football.
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ST_Lawson
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Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:21 am

RedNeck wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:44 am
One sidebar. Wisconsin is and oddity you have the likes of UW Parkside that is a D-III that has FCS football facilities and the talent to probably be upper level in OVC and at least respectable in MVFC. Weird.
You're thinking UW-Whitewater. 12,000+ students, football stadium that seats 13,500 with a stadium record of just over 17.5k at a game in 2016 (a DIII attendance record). The Warhawks haven't lost more than 3 games in a season since 2002 and haven't had an actual losing record since 1999. They went undefeated in '09, '10, '11, '13, and '14: https://s3.amazonaws.com/sidearm.sites/ ... _years.pdf
In '13/'14, UW-Whitewater made history by winning the men's football, basketball, and baseball championships in the same academic year...the only school in any division to ever do that.

EDIT - also UW-Whitewater is where our new volleyball coach is from

If UW-Madison allowed them to, they could move to DI and join the MVFC and be very competitive within a couple of years...probably would be above average in the conference for home football attendance as well. But Madison doesn't want another DI football program in the state, even if they are FCS. Minnesota is the same way, which is way the Twin Cities area is such a recruiting hotbed for MVFC teams, especially the Dakota teams and UNI, which are pretty close.

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wiu712
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Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:10 pm

UW-Oshkosh also has a successful football program. Their enrollment is 13,500. They are NCAA Division 3.

In 2012, the UW-Oshkosh Titan football team advanced to the NCAA Division III Semi-finals before falling to St. Thomas in St. Paul, Minnesota. The Titans finished with a 13-1 (7-0 WIAC) record and ranked as the #4 team by d3football.com.

In 2015, the Titans were again undefeated in the WIAC regular season and advanced to the NCAA Division III Quarter-finals before losing to WIAC rival UW-Whitewater.

The Titans were 2016 national runners-up, losing to the University of Mary Hardin–Baylor in the Amos Alonzo Stagg Bowl, the NCAA Division III Championship game.

In 2017 the Titans were again undefeated and were the #1-seeded team in the Division III NCAA tournament. They were defeated in the semi-final game in Oshkosh by eventual national champions, the University of Mount Union.
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sealhall74
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Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:05 pm

Fact: Mount Union has more assistant football coaches (15) than Nick Saban does at Alabama (13). Both staffs are missing that all important Director of Football Technology that Brian Kelly gets to work with at Notre Dame. ;)
If Jimmy V was a programmer like me, he would have said it like this: while (!(succeed = try()));
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RedNeck
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Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:11 pm

ST_Lawson wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:21 am
RedNeck wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:44 am
One sidebar. Wisconsin is and oddity you have the likes of UW Parkside that is a D-III that has FCS football facilities and the talent to probably be upper level in OVC and at least respectable in MVFC. Weird.
You're thinking UW-Whitewater. 12,000+ students, football stadium that seats 13,500 with a stadium record of just over 17.5k at a game in 2016 (a DIII attendance record). The Warhawks haven't lost more than 3 games in a season since 2002 and haven't had an actual losing record since 1999. They went undefeated in '09, '10, '11, '13, and '14: https://s3.amazonaws.com/sidearm.sites/ ... _years.pdf
In '13/'14, UW-Whitewater made history by winning the men's football, basketball, and baseball championships in the same academic year...the only school in any division to ever do that.

EDIT - also UW-Whitewater is where our new volleyball coach is from

If UW-Madison allowed them to, they could move to DI and join the MVFC and be very competitive within a couple of years...probably would be above average in the conference for home football attendance as well. But Madison doesn't want another DI football program in the state, even if they are FCS. Minnesota is the same way, which is way the Twin Cities area is such a recruiting hotbed for MVFC teams, especially the Dakota teams and UNI, which are pretty close.

Image
Yes Sir, you are correct. My mind was thinking Whitewater for some reason I typed Parkside.
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RedNeck
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Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:55 pm

Nothing against University of North Dakota, but come on man! how many Dakota schools make a full set? Grand Forks is 11 hours from Macomb. University of Wisconsin Whitewater is a manageable 4:45 min bus ride. WW might be a nice addition to the Summit too.
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BobLovely
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Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:25 am

ST_Lawson wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:21 am
RedNeck wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:44 am
One sidebar. Wisconsin is and oddity you have the likes of UW Parkside that is a D-III that has FCS football facilities and the talent to probably be upper level in OVC and at least respectable in MVFC. Weird.
You're thinking UW-Whitewater. 12,000+ students, football stadium that seats 13,500 with a stadium record of just over 17.5k at a game in 2016 (a DIII attendance record). The Warhawks haven't lost more than 3 games in a season since 2002 and haven't had an actual losing record since 1999. They went undefeated in '09, '10, '11, '13, and '14: https://s3.amazonaws.com/sidearm.sites/ ... _years.pdf
In '13/'14, UW-Whitewater made history by winning the men's football, basketball, and baseball championships in the same academic year...the only school in any division to ever do that.

EDIT - also UW-Whitewater is where our new volleyball coach is from

If UW-Madison allowed them to, they could move to DI and join the MVFC and be very competitive within a couple of years...probably would be above average in the conference for home football attendance as well. But Madison doesn't want another DI football program in the state, even if they are FCS. Minnesota is the same way, which is way the Twin Cities area is such a recruiting hotbed for MVFC teams, especially the Dakota teams and UNI, which are pretty close.

Image
I have been to a number of football games at UW-WW over the years and the energy level is very high. It feels like an FCS experience. The stadium is better than ours. Of course, a lot of stadiums are better than ours...

Bob
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